The Avina Podcast is a show where we talk to interesting people in the wine industry including winery owners, wine retailers, wine industry decision makers, and more.
In this episode AVINA’s Joanna Stevens talks to Jiles Halling, a champagne expert with many years working in the industry. He is the owner at ‘Mad about Bubbly’ also known as ‘My Man in Champagne’ where he helps hotels, restaurants and HNWIs create their own private champagne brand.
For those that prefer to listen you can find the episode right here. For the readers among us we've transcribed the full interview which can be found below.
Joanna: Thanks for joining us.
Firstly let's begin with a brief intro of yourself and let us know
how long you've been working with wine and champagne.
Jiles: Well I started being
interested in wine almost from the sort of age when I was legally
allowed to drink it and occasionally before then. But I always found
it a fascinating topic. I would just go into wine shops and just read
the labels and browse around the shelves and things. So I was always
fascinated by that. But it wasn't until I was about 30 that I
actually got the opportunity to work in the wine trade. Started off
in the UK; worked in the duty-free business.
Joanna: Oh wow.
Yeah that's a very interesting sector of the market. Completely changed since I first started out but still very dynamic. And that led on as things always do to other doors opening. We went out to San Francisco. I went to Japan after that. Worked for a big company. Then back to England and eventually ended up in France. So you know, it's been quite a long journey.
Joanna: And how long would you
say that you'd been working with champagne specifically.
Jiles: I go back to 1996. I was recruited by Moët et Chandon working out of their head office in Epernay. And really ever since that time, you know, that's over 20 years, I've been involved in champagne specifically Chandon.
Joanna: So you know your bubbly
then.
Jiles: Yeah, I would like to
think so.
Joanna: We're talking to the
right person.
Jiles: I would like to think so but I'm particularly interested in the smaller brands because I don't know if your listeners know, but there are almost 5000 champagne makers.
Joanna: Wow.
Jiles: Most of whom most people have never heard of, some of them are absolutely wonderful. And every bit as well, I was going to say good - good is a subjective thing.. But every bit as fascinating as some of the better-known brands.
Joanna: Have you been lucky
enough to taste them all?
Jiles: No. I think I'd need
another life to be able to do that, or another liver.
Joanna: So you actually help people to produce their own brands of champagne. So how did that get started from working at places like Moët, well working with places like Moët et Chandon?
Jiles: Well, when I left Moët, I was with them almost eight years, I had various other sort of incarnations. I had what was one of the first websites selling champagne online, particularly small brands. They're called Grower Champagnes. And I was also doing consulting, sales and marketing consulting for some of these small brands. And as things happen, often by coincidence, somebody heard of me and said, I've got this idea: I want to create my own brand.
Joanna: So basically you were
headhunted into this then.
Jiles: Yes, it wasn't on such a sort of corporate level. It's somebody who had a fashion magazine and was in the film business, came to me and said "I want to produce my own champagne brand, how do I do it?" So we did it.
Joanna: Excellent. Now, you're not going to share any names with us are you?
Jiles: Probably not, but I mean, nobody famous. I don't think so at least. Just somebody who could be known...
Joanna: There are some famous
people at the moment who have their own brands of wine and champagne.
So what type of people are approaching you to have champagnes
produced?
Jiles: That's really interesting because I mean, in theory anybody can do this. But clearly if you have certain 'assets' if you like, you are more likely to succeed. You've only got to look around to see the number of celebrities that are creating whisky brands, bourbon brands, gin brands, wine brand, you name it. I mean they're popping up all the time. And it can be very profitable. I don't know if you've heard this but George Clooney started a tequila brand with two associates not so many years ago and they sold it recently for one billion pounds.
Joanna: Wow.
Jiles: Dollars I should say.
Joanna: I had read about it but
I hadn't read about the price tag. So that's pretty impressive.
Jiles: Then Jay-Z the rapper who I recently read in Forbes Magazine is also worth one billion pounds and half of his fortune is contributed by two drinks brands. One is a champagne brand and the other is a cognac brand. So it can be profitable. So if you have a following, like a celebrity, that's a very good place to start. But anybody who has a database if you like, so that could be hotels, restaurants, cruise ships for example, anybody who has a throughput and an existing database of clients would find this useful and a lot of fun and profitable. And right now I'm trying to contact some charities as well. Because instead of having to go cap in hand asking people for donations, by creating your own revenue generating brand you are self-sufficient. So that's of interest to a couple of charities.
Joanna: So Jiles:, I'd love to
ask you about the next big question that's on everybody's lips at the
moment and that is, what is your take on the current boom in sales
for English sparkling wine?
Jiles: Well, as an English man it's obviously gratifying to see all this recognition that English sparkling wine is getting and undoubtedly there are some brands that are making really fabulous wines. I think there's probably only about a dozen that are really making a name for themselves. But good luck to them and quite understandably they're making the most of all the media attention that they're getting. Whether or not it's absolutely true to say there's a boom, I'm not so sure because last year there was a great summer in the UK and I've read that just under 16 million bottles of wine were made.
Jiles: It's not all sparkling. There's a lot of still wine in there as well. The average is somewhere around ten million. So it's still very small compared with champagne which is 300 million bottles a year.
And Prosecco even more than that. There's certainly a future for English sparkling wine and I wish them well. I don't think in the immediate future it's going to knock champagne off it's, sort of perch if I can call it that. And I think one of the things that they have to...
Joanna: Sorry. I think that
would be very difficult for an English sparkling wine to knock away
the history and the longevity of champagne. But I also believe, yes
that they're doing very well.
Jiles: There's certainly a place for them. I mean there are some great sparkling wines from Australia, New Zealand and Spain you know. And Prosecco of course is a slightly different market, slightly different image. But there's a place for everybody. And I think one of the things that English sparkling wine needs to do, would be helpful is to come up with a name that trips more easily off the tongue.
Joanna: Yes.
Jiles: There's cava, there's
prosecco which are easy and recognizable and everybody can get their
tongue around that. There's champagne of course. English sparkling
wine just doesn't have quite the same magic to it.
Joanna: So we talked a little bit earlier together and we were saying that we've got our offices here in Spain and that you also have an office of sorts in Champagne. But here in Spain we are often dealing with Spanish wine and champagne or cavas. So what's your take on Spanish wines?
Jiles: Well I'm not an expert. I
have to say that straight out. But in Spain they've been making wine
for hundreds of years. So clearly they know what they're doing.
There's a very old and well-established tradition of making wine out
there. My main experience with Spanish wine has been with Rioja,
which is fantastic. I'm not that familiar with others, but the
Spanish wines I do come across I've always enjoyed. I think like so
many things when you're actually in Spain, everything tastes so much
better. That's part of the experience of being there.
Joanna: It really does, yes. And
I think so many people are familiar with the Rioja that you mentioned
but that's just one region of Spain as you know.
Jiles: Absolutely.
Joanna: The Spanish winemakers at the moment I've read are working so hard to make their wines known, because they're all very good and just as good as the Rioja. It's just that everybody knows about Rioja now.
Jiles: It just goes to show the
importance of marketing. I'm not suggesting that making wine is easy;
it's certainly not. It requires a great deal of skill. I always think
to myself that compared to marketing and selling, it is easier.
Joanna: Yes. Yes. It's not an
easy task. And talking about selling, we at Avina sell wine
accessories, so I'm obviously interested in non-core products going
into retail spaces. Studies have shown that consumers are struggling
with preserving their sparkling wine once it's been opened. Are there
ways that you are currently using to educate your clients about this?
Jiles: Well there's an old joke about that. There's and opened champagne bottle and somebody asks the question: "what do you do with the champagne that's left in the bottom of the bottle". And the other person turns and says, "I'm sorry, what is champagne that's left in the bottom of the bottle? I've never come across that."
Joanna: It may be an old
argument, but sometimes it happens.
Jiles: Yes sometimes it does happen. You're quite right. There is no perfect solution. Certainly the old wives tales about putting a silver spoon into the neck of the bottle doesn't work. You can, if you're in the trade and you're prepared to pay for the equipment, you can get some of these machines that put in a gas into the top of the bottle which do work for several days. Other than that, some of these bottle stoppers that you can buy will keep sparkling wine and champagne nice and bubbly for certainly 24 hours and possibly even 48. After that though, I just don't think it's worth hanging on to. It's loses its sparkle. It loses its energy. But 24 hours, 48 hours is okay if you have a regular stopper.
Joanna: If you have a quality
stopper, yes. We agree because we actually have a really good
champagne stopper here at Avina. So we do agree that it will last up
to one to two days afterwards. But we often say that if you're not
going to drink it maybe you can make mixes with it the next day or
you can buzz it up a little bit.
Jiles: Or you can cook with it.
You know a lot of recipes call for a dash of wine. Sparkling wine is
equally as good.
Joanna: That's a good tip there.
Thank you. I didn't know that you could cook with champagne.
Jiles: Oh absolutely. Goodness gracious. Some champagne and sparkling wine, it's intriguing.. If you look at many wine lists that say sparkling wine or wine and sparkling wine or wine and champagne as if the two are different. They're not. A champagne is simply wine with bubbles in it.
Joanna: Yes, that's true. That's
true. So sometimes you don't associate one with the other.
Jiles: That's right.
Joanna: So it's really great to
have that clear.
Jiles: Which is down to the
marketing again really.
Joanna: True. That's very true.
So, we've been talking about our stopper and obviously we would like
to see it in as many retail spaces as possible. How important do you
believe it is for wine retailers and brands, not just to focus on the
core products like their wine but also offer other wine related
products?
Jiles: I think it's essential. Not only does it give the consumer a wider choice, but it's a very significant profit earner. I don't know the exact figures because that would depend on the skill of the outlet concern. But wine is a whole world, once you get into it there's more to it than just drinks. There are books, there are accessories. One of the things I used to use, still occasionally do use, when I do champagne tastings, is to start off with one of these aroma kits. If you know what I mean.
Joanna: Yeah.
Jiles: And people are fascinated by that and you can pit your wits against somebody else. You can make a game of it. And it's just a great way to introduce people to different aromas and sensations that they can experience before they get on to the actual tasting. So that when they do taste the wine they've got an idea of what they're looking for. So all sorts of things like that, not only make money for the outlet but provide the consumer with a whole new range of enjoyment. So I think that accessories are really an important part of this - and people don't like to be sold to all the time. They like to discover things for themselves and offering accessories is a way to bring them gently to the world of wine. And that leads to the sale of a bottle or two.
Joanna: Well we've also been talking a lot about marketing and the importance of marketing and obviously that would include branding and that's something we at Avina offer. All our accessories can be custom branded, so that people can go to shows and or have parties with custom branded accessories and give them as gifts or however it be, some kind of promotion or something. And you can use them like you said, it's an upsell so it's a profitable enterprise. It's always profit earning. The margins are quite respectable in accessories. So it is profitable.
Jiles: Yeah, I believe you.
Joanna: So yeah, I think we'll start to wrap up. But we've been talking quite a lot about the business side of things and so we'd like to find out a bit more about you. What's your favourite way to relax on the weekends? So if you're going to do it with wine, what do you do?
Jiles: Well, I'm still a big fan
of champagne I have to say. Once you've lived out there you tend to
get spoiled. Partly I admit because it's so much cheaper actually
when you live out in France. But I enjoy sitting down with a group of
friends enjoying a meal together, because it's just such a convivial
way of passing the time. Good food and good wine, the two go together
and complement each other. So that's one of my favorite things to do.
And I've had some fabulous experiences serving wine, champagne
rather, throughout the meal from start to finish because there are so
many different types. That's not something that occurs to many people
but it really is something worth doing.
Joanna: That sounds fabulous.
I'd love to come to one of your parties Jiles.
Jiles: Next time you will be
more than welcome.
Joanna: Oh, thank you. Well
yeah, I think we're all in agreeance there that there's nothing
better than having a nice evening with friends, enjoying good food
and good wine or champagne and just chatting and enjoying the things
that we like about each other and obviously the food.
Jiles: Absolutely.
Joanna: If we're lucky enough to have champagne. But it's not always expensive as you say. There are 5000 different champagne makers and brands on the market. So it is a market well worth exploring. And now you know who Jiles is, he'd love to help you create your own. So thanks Jiles for talking with me today. I do really appreciate it. I am a newbie to wine and champagne, so it's lovely to be able to find it out from such an expert today.
